The Sista Circle Podcast

Sex, Pleasure & Pain: Exploring Sexual Well-Being w/ Dr. Shemeka Thorpe

• Faith S. Alaribe • Season 2 • Episode 22

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EPISODE OVERVIEW: I interview Dr. Shemeka Thorpe, an award-winning sexuality educator and researcher at the University of Kentucky, to discuss all things sexual well-being.  We talk about everything from sexual function and orgasms, to normalizing the use of lube prior to menopause and reasons your partner may not be initiating sex.This is the conversation that as women, we’ve all been waiting for, and Dr. Shemeka delivers a wealth of information (and it’s based on research) on how to explore and get more of, the big “P” -  PLEASURE!

In this episode we talk about:

  • How to feel empowered to figure out what brings you pleasure and try new things
  • Dr. Shemeka’s research, which focuses on the sexual well-being of Black women – including pleasure, sexual function, desire, and more
  • Reasons why women fake orgasms
  • The 6 components of female sexual function
  • Causes of pain during sex, and why women don't mention it to partners or doctors 
  • How Black women and men define pleasure (the results will blow your mind!)
  • The orgasm gap between Black women and their partners
  • Methods to have constructive conversations with your partner about your sexual needs and desires.

ABOUT THE GUEST: Dr. Shemeka Thorpe is an award-winning sexuality educator and researcher at the University of Kentucky. She obtained her PhD from the University of North Carolina at Greensboro in Community Health Education. Her research focuses on the sexual well-being of Black women using sex-positive and intimate justice frameworks. Dr. Thorpe strives to make research relevant for Black communities by integrating sex research and community health education.

How you can connect with Dr. Shemeka:


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EP.22 | Sex, Pleasure & Pain: Exploring Sexual Well-Being w/ Dr. Shemeka Thorpe

Intro: Hey queen, I'm Faith Alaribe, the founder and host of the Sista Circle Podcast. Around here we have honest and real conversations about our health, mental health and wellness, topics that deeply impact our lives as women of color. And all with the mission to provide the information, tools and resources to fill up our wellness toolkits, make informed decisions and to allow us to thrive in every area of our lives. So, get ready to be enlightened informed and inspired. Go ahead and get comfortable queen consider this your official welcome to the Sista Circle.

Faith: Hey queen, before we jump into the episode, I wanted to make a quick plug. I don't know about you, but over the last month or so, I've been really missing communion with like-minded women, which just like you. And as I like to really be intentional about the things that I do, I wanted to create a Sista Circle with intention. So coming Sunday, February 20th at 10:00 AM central time, I'll be hosting my first installment of I Say Sundays. It's a curated space for women of color to commune, reflect and reset for the purpose of self-nourishment, we'll do some meditation and reflection, some theme small group discussions, and even an activity to help you prioritize really caring for yourself. I know you may be thinking why "I Say"? Well, I Say is actually a philosophical concept of the Yoruba Tribe of Nigeria, which essentially means call or to speak into existence, or to affirm something with strength and power.

So, at I Say Sundays, we'll be affirming the power of self-nourishment and caring for ourselves. And I'll explain all of the details at the actual Sista Circle itself. In the meantime, after you listen to this week's episode, be sure to check out the show notes, head over to the Sista Circle Podcast website, or check out the Link Tree on our Instagram to register to attend. I haven't been this excited in a really long time, so I'm looking forward to communing with you and prioritizing our wellness together Queen. Now, let's get into this episode, shall we?

Well, listen, I am so excited to have today is guest with us. I've got Dr. Shameka with us. Dr. Shameka, welcome to the Sista Circle queen.

Dr. Shameka: Thank you. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Faith: I'm so excited to have you. So, I say that we just go ahead and jump right in. And before I often get started for like my interviews, I always want to start with setting an intention. And so my question to you is, what's your intention for the women who will hear this episode on the podcast? What do you want them to take away?

Dr. Shameka: I hope the women from this podcast walk away feeling empowered to explore what brings them pleasure. I think so often we don't take time to do that as black women. And so I hope from this podcast, and from this episode, you feel empowered to go out and figure what brings you pleasure and what new things you want to try.

Faith: Yes. Okay, so who is Dr. Shameka? I'm interested in knowing both the A side and the B side of your business card.

Dr. Shameka: Okay, so Dr. Shameka, I am from a small town called Wendell, North Carolina. It’s outside of Raleigh, North Carolina, so I'm very much of a country girl raised with tractors and dump trucks. I was raised in a rural city where we didn't have sexuality education, and so that really made me passionate about the work that I do. So growing up, I did see a lot of teen moms that just didn't have access to resources. And so, it got me really passionate about advocacy work, but then also teen pregnancy prevention. And then I switched over to being in a more comprehensive sex-ed realm. Currently, I am a sex researcher at the University of Kentucky. So I'm in Lexington, Kentucky. I've been here for about a year and a half and loving it. And so, I work with a lot of other sex researcher, whether they're in counseling psychology or some that work for the CDC. So just having the opportunity to work with other black women is amazing.

Faith: So tell me this, you, you said that you're a sexuality researcher. Okay, so tell me what exactly is that? What is your research focus on?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah, so my search focuses on the sexual wellbeing of black women. So sexual wellbeing is expansive, so meaning we're not just focusing on HIV reduction or risk reduction or teen pregnancy prevention, but we're also focusing on the idea of like sexual function and how orgasm and desire, satisfaction, how our sexual pleasure might enhance our romantic relationships, all these different components. Because so often, when you're reading information about black women's sexuality is always deficit based. It's like, oh, high HIV rates, high pregnancy rates. It's like, okay, but what else? There's more to us than that, and so I'm here to kind of help fill that missing gap.

Faith: Oh. And I appreciate that filling in that missing gap because it is definitely necessary for sure. So, why do you think that it's important that we even have conversations about sex as black women?

Dr. Shameka: I think it's important because for so long people who have tried to silence us about our sex and sexuality, right? Like whether it be through stereotypes of where they're seeing us as hypersexual or through respectability politics, where people are telling us not to talk about sex because of the image that it can give or portray. I think being able to talk about sex as women is kind of liberating in a way as black women, where we can talk about what matters to us. We're not taking care of anybody else in that moment; it's about us and what brings us pleasure. But also, so we can make safer sex decisions, so whether that be about contraceptives or testing or talking to our partners. Those are all things that are important, but we need the safe space to do so.

Faith: And so since you are a researcher, what does the research say as it relates to black women in orgasms and just our overall ideas about pleasure?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah. So recently my mentor, Dr. Candice Hargons, she did a study called the Big Sex Study. And so, therapy for black girls actually reposted some information that we found about black women and orgasms. And so, one thing that was shocking is I think over 70% of black women reported that they had fake the orgasm in their lifetime. I won't say shocking, but it was like, oh, okay, yeah, we needed that stats. That's like three out of four women have said that they fake the orgasms.

Faith: I fake many of orgasms myself.

Dr. Shameka: I mean, same, early lives, definitely. So, I think that's one thing that we've seen. We also see that there's an orgasm gap. So in the research I've done with Dr. Ashley Towns, we saw that there's an orgasm gap with between black women and their male partners throughout our lifespan. So like across different age groups, that we see that black women are less likely to report orgasms compared to their male partners. But we see for 50 year olds, the gap is a smaller, so that's something that's...

Faith: What is that saying though?

Dr. Shameka: Listen, I don't know what the boomers are doing. But you know, maybe it's also could be determined by their relationships. So maybe those are women that were in more committed relationships or married, and so felt they felt more comfortable talking about their sexuality and their needs, so that's one thing that we have seen. It was good during that study because I think it went up to age 92, and so people that were in their eighties and nineties, black women in their eighties and nineties were talking about what brought them pleasure. For them it was, you know, more manual stimulation, so fingering and hand jobs and just touching, and how our definition of sex changes across our lifespan. And I thought that was pretty cool. And so, my recent study focused on pain and pleasure.

And so, my research on sexual pain shows that 60% of black women reported experiencing genital pain during sexual intercourse. However, there's many reasons why they didn't tell their partner and their provider. And so what some of those reasons were, were like for telling their provider, they just felt like their provider was dismissive or maybe they had told their provider about another pain, just a general pain. They're like, they didn't listen to that. Well, I'm going to tell them about something's so vulnerable as sexual pain? Or they're telling their partner they just felt like their partner wouldn't listen. And I think I made a post about how so many black women in that study felt like they had to be a superwoman also in the bedroom. So you're walking around in everyday life feeling the need to be a superwoman, and now you're doing the same thing within the bedroom. It's like, that's my burden to carry, you know, I'm not going to tell them about pain. They wouldn't understand it or not feeling like they had a partner that would be either responsive or they received negative responses in the past and they didn't want to receive that again now.

Faith: Wow. That's sad.

Dr. Shameka: It is.

Faith: That's really sad. So, I want to actually go back to the point that you were making about 70% of black women have faked in orgasm. And then I want to talk about the pain and pleasure piece. So, why are women faking orgasms?

Dr. Shameka: I mean, let me think about some of the reasons I did. You know what I mean? So I think like, you know, we both said like we both faked orgasms before, and I think part of that is, you know, some reasons that women have stated art just because they wanted to end the sex, they're like, I'm going to have that orgasm.

Faith: I'm tired.

Dr. Shameka: Like I'm tired, like I'm tired, or I already knew I wasn't going to have an orgasm at this point, so I'm just like, let me go ahead and end it and fake it. Part of that is like the partner's ego, so kind of trying to stroke that like, "Oh, they're trying so hard, I don't want to ruin that for them." Or not feeling like that they can tell them. So maybe it's not a relationship where they feel like they are safe enough to tell them that, "Hey, this is what brings me pleasure." Or, "Hey, you're not doing that." Like, "Hey, you're not providing me an orgasm." But then also faking it just kind of creates this constant loop. Like you fake it, so then they like, "Okay, that's something you like, I'm going to continue to do that, but truth be told, that's something you hated. But they think that you like it so they just continue to do it and over and over, so it's a cycle. So, those are some of the main reasons why women fake it is just like they don't want to be vulnerable in that space, they don't know how to communicate that, or just to stroke their partner's ego.

Faith: Got it. So speaking of like the communication of like your needs to your partner, right, are there any ways that you would even suggest that one go about having those types of conversations with their partner?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah. I think one thing that's helpful, so I always like suggest resources because I think sometimes people need another tool to use besides like, I feel that, that, that, right. And so some things that I suggest are sexologists [unclear 11:48], use your mouth cards, so I love those cards. Those cards have general intimacy questions, but also sex questions, and so it can definitely help out with that, with that communication piece if you don't know how to start the conversation. Also, it feels more neutral because this is like a game that you're playing. And so as a couple, you've agreed to then answer these questions, and so it provides a space of vulnerability. Also, Afro sexology has great worksheets on communication, but also just like erotic plans and figuring out what you may want to try during sex. So it's like a yes, no, maybe checklist. And so, that's a great opportunity to spark between partners, but also just in general, like sometimes even between friends. Like I know some black women have used that with their friend groups, so it's like, "Girl, what you check off?"

Faith: Right. Right.

Dr. Shameka: So that's good too.

Faith: That's really cool. That's really cool. I like those resources that you suggested, because I think that having a session with your partner, whether you've been married or you've been with them for a long time, it can be hard. And I think particularly because a lot of times by communicating your needs, your partner might think that you're kind of saying that it's something that they're doing wrong. When in fact, it's more about what you want more of, or what actually does bring you pleasure versus what is thought to give you pleasure. Definitely. So now, I'm really interested in exploring a little bit more about your personal research on pain and pleasure. I'm really curious to know, like, what are some of the reasons that women are reporting actual experience of pain during sex?

Dr. Shameka: Not being aroused. So some women have reported that their partner is initiating sex too soon, so they're just not aroused. Part of it is previous traumas. So a lot of times people are engaging in sex and because of previous traumas that they have, they have some triggers related to that. And then that sometimes may affect their arousal, but also their desire. So, that's something that I've seen a lot of black women talk about. It's kind of like they're in their head. So, you know, we refer to that as spectator. So, you're there, you're there having sex, but mentally you're not. And so, that's something that definitely can affect that. Also, a lot of times women have different reproductive health disorders. So we know for black women, black women have higher rates of endometriosis, fibroids and polycystic ovary syndrome compared to women of other races, especially compared to white women. And so, that's something that can definitely affect the type of sex that people have and if it's full or not.

But truth be told, a lot of times when I was talking with black women, when we were doing the interviews, we were discussing how like many of them didn't use lube, but how also like lube wasn't something that was recommended by their medical provider. And the reasons for using lube was like, it's not natural or it doesn't feel normal. Like, you feel like something's wrong with you if you have to use lube, because think about it, in sex we're not taught about it - we're not taught about lube. We don't learn about it, so it's just like, if it's on the condom, that's what you get. But other than that, you don't learn about lube. And so I think if anything, part of the things that I've heard there is how we need to normalize the conversations about lube and using it before we get to a point of menopause, because I feel like that's the time when people always bring it up. People bring it up when we're talking about menopause, but the people in my study were all premenopausal and that was on purpose. Like, I wanted to interview premenopausal women because I knew that it's not that black women are only experiencing pain in menopause. It can occur before then and the reasons why that might be.

Faith: Got it. So you bring up the point of menopause, and is the reason why you bring up menopause because of the fact that when you are in menopause, is it like, not as, I'm going to just say, juicy down there, and is that because of the fluctuation or the diminishment of certain hormones?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah. So that's definitely hormone-related, but also it just kind of like during... so usually there is more vaginal dryness during menopause that can occur, sometimes the differences in hormone changes. But then also we know with premenopausal women, like depending on the birth control that you're on, it could also cause vaginal dryness and affect desire and arousal. So there's all these different things, but I think so often it's just focused on menopause. And so the women that are premenopausal or haven't gone through menopause, feel kind of abnormal when they're like, "Okay, well I'm experiencing vaginal dryness, like what's that? I shouldn't be experiencing that at 23 or at 32." And so I think that's why we need to start those conversations early on.

Faith: Absolutely. So, one of the things you may mention of is part of like your research has to do with sexual function. Can you talk to me a little bit about what exactly is sexual function?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah. So sexual function is usually consists of six things for women, so that's desire, arousal, lubrication, orgasm, sexual satisfaction, and then if you are experiencing pain or discomfort. And so, that's more of - it goes beyond the health - sexual health as I was referring to. So this is literally how your body functions like in that space.

Faith: So you're talking about like, these are kind of like the steps that it takes or the process.

Dr. Shameka: The steps that it takes, and like if you went to a doctor and they were measuring sexual function, they would measure it by those six things. So what is your desire like, what is your arousal like, your lubrication, orgasm? So, whether that be frequency of orgasm or quality of orgasms, as well as if you're satisfied and if you experience pain?

Faith: So along the lines of orgasm and arousal and desire, like I know for myself, especially as a mom and a newer mom in the sense of, I have a nine month old, right? Like, the whole notion of desire, you know, sometimes it's there, but a lot of times it isn't. And so, I know for some of my other girlfriends, just the conversation about desire and it's like, well, it's not that I'm not attracted to my partner or anything, but it just ain't there. And is there anything that you can say why that might be the case?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah, I think desire just fluctuate. I think sometimes we put so much pressure on ourselves to feel like we have to desire sex all the time because society tells us that as black women we should, or that's who they portray us to be. And if we do, that's fine, but also if you don't, that's okay. And so I think it just fluctuates with life experiences. I mean, having a baby is a big deal, so sometimes you just going through changes, definitely with stress, like stress with COVID, stress in general, that can have an effect on that. Anxiety can have an effect on desire. Depression can have an effect, and for different people it means different things. So, if someone's stressed out, they might desire sex more because it's a release, like a stress release, whereas other people are stressed out and they can't get aroused at all or desire to have sex, so it just varies from person to person. But I think the most important thing is to check in with yourself to see why you may not be desiring sex as often as you usually do, or just what changes are happening. Are there any mental health changes? Are there any chronic illnesses that popped up now? Are there any like physical changes? Because I think sometimes we forget those things as well, like the physical demands or chronic pain or illness that people may be experiencing or even changes in medication. Like, any medications that you're taking could definitely affect that.

Faith: So, how can we have more pleasurable sexual experiences just across the board? Dr. Shameka, I know you got some tricks up your sleeve.

Dr. Shameka: I don't know if it's tricks.

Faith: I know it's research-based. So what is a research based approach to having more pleasurable sexual experiences?

Dr. Shameka: Well, I think even not research based; I think so often we don't give ourselves the space to just decide to explore what brings us pleasure. And so I think, whether that be through sex toys and trying new sex toys. A lot of times there's taboos around that, but now it's becoming more mainstream where people are using sex toys more, so exploring what brings you pleasure individually, I think that's what's most important. I think too often people wait to explore what brings them pleasure with partnered experiences, but forget to do that on their own. And so whether that be through toys or hand, you know, not just fingering or whatever, like figuring out what brings you pleasure, so then you can communicate that to a partner.

Now, sometimes you can have a partner that can introduce something new to you, like okay, I know about that. You know, so definitely like that's an option, but I think first we have to know what brings us pleasure and what we want to try. And so that's why I always go back to that yes/no/maybe sheet, but even just looking up stuff, like you don't know what you might want to try until it's like exposed to you, I guess is what I'm trying to say. So looking at a list of things saying, yeah, I might want to try this or no, I don't want to try that. And if there's some barriers to you exploring masturbation or exploring sex toys, figure out what that is and how to overcome that. Because a lot of times with black women, it's honestly shame. It's like shame and stigma, right, stigma in the black community that you don't do this and shame around masturbation due to religion, and so we have to unlearn a lot of that in order to have pleasurable sex.

Faith: Well, speaking of unlearning, how do you approach unlearning some of those things? Because those are like embedded beliefs that you have oftentimes.

Dr. Shameka: They are. But they're embedded beliefs that we have, where I think at some point we have to reflect on if these beliefs are still suitable for who we are now. So I think some of these beliefs are ingrained in us in childhood, and so I think, especially when I'm hearing black women talk about masturbation as like a sin, masturbation is a sin, it's shameful, it's something you don't do. These are messages that they received in childhood. And so as you grow up, you have to then reflect and say, okay, does it really mean this? Like, is this really in the Bible? You know, you have to start questioning things for yourself and decide what those beliefs are for you. And so I think that's what's most helpful is, it's kind of that reframing. Because even in the Big Sex Study that Dr. Hargons led, one thing that we saw is that like women were saying that it was a sin and it was shameful, but then also as they got older, their messages around masturbation changed. So, it's kind of a control thing, right? Like control you so you don't do it. But then, you get older and now all of a sudden that shame is supposed to go away and you're supposed to enjoy it? So just try trying to process that for yourself.

Faith: You know what, that's kind of interesting though, right? So the older that you get, and whether that means that your partner is no longer there, but you still have the sexual urge or desire. And so maybe that is what causes you to kind of explore the whole notion of masturbation in your older age. I think that that's actually pretty interesting. I think I would be actually thrilled to see what the conversations were like, especially as you were doing your research with the older women, especially. Yeah, I'm sure it was... was there ever anything that startled you or that you were just like so unexpected by?

Dr. Shameka: So that part was more of survey-based, so people responded to it in a survey, so I didn't get to talk to people like one-on-one, but I think it's always interesting to think about. I think so often we forget about older black women, especially those that are maybe like widowed or those that are just single and enjoying life. People are still having pleasurable sex and that's important. Because I think oftentimes we get to an age where we're like, okay, at 80, no one's having sex anymore at 80. And it's like, well, okay, maybe not in the way that you're defining sex, but maybe they redefine what sex means for them. And they're still having these pleasurable intimate experiences and that's what's most important.

Faith: Absolutely. I mean, I hope that I'm 80 getting it in still and experiencing pleasure, for real. So it's so funny, so one of the conversations that I was having with a girlfriend the other day was around their partner not initiating sex, and it's see a topic that I've explored a few times with some friends. And I'm just really curious to know, like what might be some reasons that a partner might not be initiating sex with you.

Dr. Shameka: Yeah. Sometimes they might not feel comfortable or confident enough to initiate sex, so that might be an issue. Sometimes there's like underlying relationship issues too. So, sometimes if someone is having an issue within their relationship that they haven't talked about or discussed or like a conflict; that can sometimes hinder it. But I think oftentimes two people don't know how other people like them to initiate sex. So, sometimes people don't know how people like sex initiated. I reposted something on my Instagram about preferred sex initiation styles. And truthfully told, I had never thought about this. I had never thought about that until I read this post. So it was like, would you rather be asked, would you rather be touched? And I was like, huh, which one do I prefer? Like, we all have initiation styles. Or would you rather be approached subtly or directly? So like, do you want me to be subtle or do you want me to be direct, like let's have sex? Or would you rather be surprised or see it coming?

Faith: I mean, those are things I just never thought about.

Dr. Shameka: Me neither, me neither. And so, I think sometimes it's like we put pressure on our partners and think our partners should just know like, oh, you should just know, like you see what I respond to, but truth be told, we haven't answer some of those questions ourselves. Yes, I think step one is figuring out those things and then communicate that to your partner.

Faith: Wow. So can you say those one more time for me?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah. So would you rather be asked or would you rather be touched, would you rather someone approach you and be subtle or be direct and would you rather be surprised or see it coming?

Faith: Good questions, good questions. And those are questions that I'm going to even ask myself.

Dr. Shameka: Yeah. I had a journal about it when I found it. It's from Healthy Minds Counseling Services. And I was like, let me repost that because that's something that's really good. But I think people always talk about, it's like, their partner's not initiating sex as much and what can I do?

Faith: So along those lines, how can we cultivate more healthy intimate relationships? Because I know that you talk a lot about exploring things individually and then bringing them to the partnership. But when I think about like really cultivating a healthy intimate relationship with our partner, I know that they're just not a blueprint. But are there any tips or like methodologies that you might suggest that just kind of would set the foundation for healthy relationships or healthy intimate relationships?

Dr. Shameka: And intimate, do you mean sexual?

Faith: Yeah, girl, we're talking about sex today. I mean, we're talking about intimacy, so I think that it's not just sexual, so intimacy just in general then.

Dr. Shameka: Yeah. I think talk about expectations; I think so often we don't talk about that. So expectations for intimacy, but also expectations for sex; that could even be down to the frequency of sex. Like, so how often do you expect to have sexual intercourse in a relationship? Especially, that might vary if your long distance, being long distance relationship versus close, so just expectations of that. I think also knowing your partner and what they desire, and using their love languages in sexual ways. Dr. [unclear 28:32] posted a post about how to use love languages in sex. So if your love language is words of affirmation, then talking dirty during sex might be one of those examples. So how to use that during sexual intercourse could be helpful, so that means that you're showing your partner love and the way that they like to be loved, but doing that also during sexual intercourse.

Faith: I wonder what that would look like for quality time.

Dr. Shameka: Yeah. I'm not really sure for quality time. So my love language are gifts and acts of service; those are my top two.

Faith: So what would gift giving look like in sex?

Dr. Shameka: Gifts would be, might be like sex toys or buying lingerie, so like purchasing something. Or maybe it's even setting the environment, so purchasing flowers to set the mood; something like that could be that. So definitely loving them in that way, that would create more intimacy. But then also talking about what each of you hope to get out of the relationship. So sexual and non-sexual, like that's how you build intimacy with people too. So like what you hope to get out of the relationship, knowing your own growth edges, like these are definitely the places I can grow. And sometimes that's hard, right? They require extreme vulnerability to be like, yeah, I know, I can grow in this way. Or like you know, you're not wrong about that and not being defensive.

Faith: Very much so.

Dr. Shameka: That's hard. So that's another opportunity to just reflect also on what your growth edges are and acknowledging that if your partner brings it up, but then just acknowledging in general.

Faith: Yeah. That's actually a really good point. Really good point. So, I know that we talked about the pain portion of your most recent study, but let's talk about the pleasure portion. So, what did you actually aim to explore and what were some of the outcomes that came about, particularly as it related to pleasure?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah, so one of the things that I wanted to explore was actually two things. So one thing that I wanted to explore was how black women define sexual pleasure. So if you ask someone, what did sexual pleasure mean to you? I think so often society tells us it's orgasms. But when you ask people, that's usually the last thing they say, like, it's rare. It's rare that someone's like, orgasms. And so, I really wanted to ask black women what sexual pleasure for them. And so we kind of created this idea of like pleasure mountain, right? So, there's kind of this mountain that black women are trying to climb to get to peak pleasure. And so at the bottom of this mountain, where some of the things that they refer to as like physical pleasure, like mental stimulation, there emotions and how they felt bliss and like transcendence and those things.

So it was these physical, mental, and emotional components. So that's what the mountain sits on. But in order to get to the top of the mountain, there are four other things that we needed to have. And so, those four things were mind body awareness, so us being in tune with our own body, but our partner being aware of our body. So we kind of talked about soul connections and how they felt connected to their partner and their partner knew their body, and they just felt in sync. The second thing was orgasms. So that was one thing, something that people definitely reported, but it wasn't the highest thing or just the one thing that they talk about most often also liberation. So for black women, they describe sexual pleasure as liberation. And I was like, wow, like it's freeing, it's liberating. I'm like, that means something in a world that tells us that our pleasure doesn't matter, that sexual pleasure is liberating for us. And the fourth one was just partner interaction. So it was rare that people talked about sexual pleasure or women talked about sexual pleasure in the context of masturbation or solo sex. It was always with a partner. That was one thing that definitely popped up too.

Faith: Okay, that actually is really, really interesting. I mean, I think that this also goes back to your point about the importance of really exploring what sexual pleasure means for you individually though, right?

Dr. Shameka: Yep, definitely. Definitely. And then one thing that we saw too, was that for women who were in same sex relationships, when they define pleasure, they also talked about their partner being pleased. So like, their pleasure wasn't always based on their own personal feelings or orgasms or experiences, but if their partner was pleased, and we didn't see that for a lot of heterosexual women,

Faith: Very interesting. It's funny that you mentioned that; I think that one of the posts that I saw that you had was around bisexual women and how I think it was like they reported about a 30 or 31% greater satisfaction in sexual experiences.

Dr. Shameka: Yeah, definitely. Because part of that is just like an ease in communication sometimes, so feeling more comfortable to have these conversations, but then also if you're having sex with someone of the same sex, then they might know your body better. I mean, obviously you are the expert in your own body and every person with a vulva has different experiences, but that might be an opportunity of ease and comfort. But I think also power comes into play there. So, they may feel more comfortable or like the playing field is even, versus having sex with someone, with a man where it feels kind of uneven or like stroking egos. So definitely, that's definitely a disparity. So when you look at lesbian women, bisexual women, basically anyone that does not identify as heterosexual versus heterosexual, they have more orgasm.

Faith: Girl! So I mean, it's like, okay, men need to take some notes or something. I mean, they need to delve into the research.

Dr. Shameka: But it was funny because I did a study with one of my friends, Dr. Sam Ware, and her research we were focusing on how black men define pleasure. And so one thing we found there was very similar to what I said about black women in same sex relationships is that they define pleasure by orgasm. But also if knowing that their partner was pleased. Like, if their partner was pleased, sex was not pleasurable. It wasn't pleased if sex was not pleasurable. So they really do want to have pleasurable sex experiences. They want it to be intimate. They talk about intimacy, cuddling, like love. They want all these things that I think sometimes society paints a picture of that they don't, and they're just out for themselves, but that's the opposite of what we're seeing. And so I think they are listening, like black men are listening and they do want their partners to have these experiences. I think sometimes there's just a communication barrier. And then also, I mean, sometimes there are just times where people just don't care. Like they really care about themselves, and I think that goes for people of any gender too.

Faith: So what else did her research talk about as it relates to men and pleasure?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah, those were the main things. So kind of like partner interactions, so wanting to know that their partner was please. Also that like an orgasm was nice, but it was kind of like orgasms are expected for men. Like, they're like, yeah, I'm going to have an orgasm. And it's like, of course, you're going have an orgasm. It's like, yeah, I'm going to have an orgasm. They didn't worry about that. Whereas I feel like a lot of research for black women, they're always worrying or hoping that they're going to have an orgasm, and men aren't necessarily having that same reaction. But they definitely were focused more on their partner and how they felt and just really wanted to have these intimate relationships with people. And even in the Big Sex Study, we would ask black people how do you describe good sex in three words. So like three words, how do you define good sex?

Faith: Oh, are you asking me?

Dr. Shameka: I mean, you can answer if you want to. Three words.

Faith: Three words in how would I define good sex? Both happy ending. Both, yeah.

Dr. Shameka: Like that reciprocity. That's one thing a lot of people said, like reciprocity. But for men, so we did like, we ranked their top 10 words for men. And one thing that we found that is in the top 10 for men that wasn't for women is loving. Good sex for them was loving, but that wasn't in there for women. And so that's what I mean, it's like this intimacy and loving thread is going through all the research that we see with black men and pleasure. But I think so often it's like a conversation that we don't have, or maybe they don't feel like they have the space to be that vulnerable to talk about it because society's telling them to suppress their emotions and not talk about these things. But these are things that they actually desire.

Faith: So, so interesting, like the loving aspect of it.

Dr. Shameka: Like good sex - loving. I'm like, oh yeah, it should be. I guess it could be, but that wasn't in my top three.

Faith: It wasn't cuddles and nothing like that either. That is hilarious. So funny. So, I want to talk a little bit more about orgasm because I know that it's not just a topic that it's like, oh, we want this orgasm. But I'm actually really curious to know like what are some of the things that might be inhibiting us from being able to reach that peak orgasm? And are there things that we can do that will allow us to get there a little bit more easily?

Dr. Shameka: Focusing on it too much, that's the thing. So someone recently made a post that was like, if you go into sex, thinking about an orgasm, then it's going to be harder for you to have an orgasm. Which is true, because so often it's like that becomes very performance-based and goal oriented. So the goal to have an orgasm - so then you go in to try to perform so you can get to this goal. And sometimes that's part of the issue, right? So if a woman is already having trouble with staying in their head during sex and thinking about all these other things, and now they're trying to also zone out so they can focus on having an orgasm; that can cause a lot of pressure. And so, that's one of the things that really inhibits us from having orgasms. I think another thing is like, I'm going back to lube, the inability for people to use lube or the decision not to use lube. That's another reason. Like, lube makes sex better. Lube is a tool.

I think people need to also see sex toys as a tool as well, right? Like, it's not a competition. It's nice having those three things, like two people and a toy in the same environment during sex, that's helpful or multiple people. So I think that's some of the things that can limit orgasms. I mean, some of it too can be like diets, but like some of it can be what you're eating. Are you drinking enough water? Like those types of things could it definitely affects lubrication, but also could possibly affect if you're having an orgasm or not. And then stress, like, what are you doing to reduce the amount of stress that you have in your daily life? And if sex is one of those things, that's good. But if sex is not, so if sex is not something that helps you relieve stress, then what are you doing to remove some of those stressors before you come into the bed?

Faith: Oh, that's good. And you know, I think that when we talk about, you know, not only will stress kill you, I guess it will take away your ability to experience an orgasm as well.

Dr. Shameka: Oh, listen, orgasm, pleasure - all of it.

Faith: We got to eliminate this stress girl. We have got to eliminate this stress so that we have more pleasure in every aspect of our lives. Absolutely.

Dr. Shameka: Definitely. Definitely.

Faith: Listen, I think this has been like so enjoyable of a conversation. I know that you have dropped a few different resources throughout our conversation, but I'm curious to know, do you have any other tools or resources that you would suggest for folks who want to learn more about whether it's sexual wellness or just pleasure and sexuality in general?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah. I feel like there's so many pages I would tell people to follow if they had social media. So I don't want to leave anyone out, but I think when I'm encouraging people to explore sex toys, I would encourage you to follow @askgoddy on Instagram, she is a sex toy dealer and has all the toys that you might want. Great descriptions of what the toys are as well on her page. Also definitely for the use your mouth cards, which will help with intimacy, but initiating conversations about sex, that's @sexologistshamyra on Instagram and On The Green Couch is her website. And I don't know, I would just encourage people to just follow other pages that might feel sexually liberating to them. Do you need someone - if you're someone that identifies as Christian, and so you want to unlearn some of the religious underpinnings or feel comfortable being in your Christianity, but also being a sexual being, definitely follow @theintimacyfirm, so that's Brittany Broaddus. She has a lot of great resources on sexual wellbeing and wellness for Christian women.

Faith: Oh, I like that a lot. I guess the last question around the whole resources piece would be, are there any like communities, you know, whether it's a virtual online community or anything like that, that you would recommend, or that you know of that might exist?

Dr. Shameka: I don't know about communities. So I know that [unclear 42:34], I don't think they're launching something new that could be community oriented. They do work with sexual wellness for black women, so they kind of operate with the belief that black women deserve good sex. So, all of their resources and posts centered around that. And then also with The Intimacy Firm, Brittany does my vulva and me, so she actually allows black women to submit essays or poems or anything about their sexual wellbeing and just their experiences and coming into their sexual selves. And she often has workshops and things like that that people can attend too.

Faith: Really cool. Really cool. Well, thank you for that. You know, I've been following you for over a year now and what's funny is, I need to figure out, do I follow you on both my personal and the podcast page, but I know I've been following you for a while and I'm like, this sister is doing her thing. I really enjoy your space that you've created in the internet as well. So for folks who are interested in connecting with you and the different workshops and things that you may begin to offer, how can they do so?

Dr. Shameka: Yeah, so you could follow me on Instagram and Facebook at Dr. Shameka, and my website is drshameka.com.

Faith: Awesome. Well, listen, thank you so much, Queen, for joining me to have this conversation and for just the amazing work that you do. I'm so excited to share all that you do with the Sista Circle Podcast Community, and I just wish you blessings and all that you do.

Dr. Shameka: Thank you so much for having me.

Outro: So I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you did, be sure to follow or subscribe to the show to make sure that you never miss a new episode. And also be sure to share the episode or podcast with another queen who might benefit. And before I go, I need your help. Please be sure to leave me a five star rating and review wherever you consume your podcast, this way more women are able to find the show and access the information that we share here. Also, if it's on your heart to buy me a coffee, any support that you're willing to provide to help me sustain this podcast is greatly appreciated. In the meantime, you can always follow us on all social media platforms at the Sista Circle Podcast, as well as via the website, thesistacirclepodcast.com. With love, Faith.


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Faith S. Alaribe

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